Lessons in Leadership: Navigating Social Justice Ayesha Bell Hardaway

00:00:00 so without further Ado let’s everybody give a warm welcome to miss Alicia Bale Hardaway to our program and a recognition that no matter how many policies you create without the right leadership culture framework mindset uh engagement in the work you’re just one moment away from another critical incident uh that can be devastating giv you motivation grow two toes down he keep it realer than most he do it for the culture that’s always the goal this is strategic moves with [Music] Kow this is strategic moves with

00:00:46 [Music] Kow hey what’s up everybody you tuned in to another episode of strategic moves I’m your host Ken D this is the place where we bring art culture politics and business all together and we do it every every Wednesday right here on this podcast but when I’m not shooting this podcast I am the owner of strategic resources where we specialize in political campaigns government and public relations work we’ve been doing it in this city for over 25 years and I want to make your next move a strategic

00:01:18 move so this program gives me the opportunity to do just that meet some people I have met across the time I’ve been working here and we come on this podcast and we talk about some of the things in our life that we find interesting that hopefully you may be able to use in your personal or business life so if this sound like something that you’re interested in all I need you to do is hit the like button hit the Subscribe button and the notification Bell as well so that you would know the next time this program is coming on so

00:01:46 we’re going to get started today today I’m really doing a lot today had a very very busy day but we gonna take some time out to do the things that I like to do most and that is podcast and talk to people so today we’re going to do just but before I get started I want to do a shout out to the podcast producer extraordinaire Mr Latif how you doing in there sir I’m good I’m good man I’m glad we survived that storm man yeah the storm was a storm wasn’t it I didn’t feel the Calm before the storm I just felt that storm no I didn’t

00:02:20 feel any of it I would have been one of those people in the building that the building would have collapsed on I was sitting up here just my head deep in work doing my thing and I called my son to ask him something and he said man you know it’s a storm outside I said really I said I ain’t even looked out there so I got up I looked outside said it don’t look too bad to me and I came back in and sat down and you know what happened the lights went out I was like oh snap it must really be a storm the Lights Went

00:02:52 Out in the whole building then my paranoia kicked in and I started think about all these crazy movies and I said you know what it’s really time for you to pack up your bags and get the heck up out of here and that’s exactly what I did I did not stick around to wait to see what was going to happen that’s for sure so my strange story was I was checking out a car that I seen and I had to run into the guy’s garage because it started raining so bad and I was just like I waited I waited and then I just ran to the car and went

00:03:26 home and then my wife called like I know you ain’t driving in that storm I’m like I’m almost home see you got lucky didn’t when I made it home too was no you know I had lights I know a lot of people didn’t but I did so that was a good thing so we’re gonna get started today man I got a special guest in the house today she is someone who’s been in Cleveland fighting for social justice and criminal justice and all kinds of justice for a while she’s been um sitting on the committee that helped to monitor some of the police injustices

00:04:02 that was going on in the city uh consent decree that we had and she’s going to talk a little bit about that and you’re a professor over at Case Western Reserve and she’s GNA sit back we’re gonna talk a little bit about she’s an interesting woman a lot of people know her and they were happy to know that she was on my podcast and I got to her and the reason why I keep telling her that is because I started podcasting almost two years ago and there were people that I said I wanted to sit down and you were on the

00:04:30 top top 10 list of people people was like you got to sit down and talk with her and I just couldn’t get around to getting it all together and I was happy to know um that Ayah got you on the list she went back to my list of original people and she said hey guess who’s coming in I said oh excellent because I wanted to sit down and talk with you so without further Ado let’s everybody give a warm welcome to miss Alicia Bell Hardaway to our program how you doing I’m fine I have to tell you though it’s iisha you know I am

00:05:03 the worst with names so I’m get it right you are in a good number of folks uh who want to throw a l in it’s Aisha it’s Aisha oh we got it Aisha that was what was the girl Another Bad Creation wasn’t that Latif djisha spelled with a e oh that’s how they spelled it yeah and um my sister’s name is Aisha and that’s spelled with a a I ha so I know a few aishes but you spell yours differently don’t you I do yeah a ye s h um often it’s uh Arabic W and so you’ll see it a ye s h okay a I ha or a ye s ha there was a group uh hip hop

00:05:51 group Back in the Day Another Bad Creation they made a song called Aisha it was a little bunch of little boys they made a song called Aisha they talked about a girl they used to love a little buddy boy on the playground there you go there it is there you go I know I ain’t crazy somebody with me all right you know what I’m I know somebody was probably called you you you Aisha from the song that song is probably about years old at least 20 or more years old got good about 30 years old yeah yeah that was in the 90s 90s

00:06:26 interesting so tell me how you doing Professor I’m doing fine sir thank you for having me oh thanks for coming on our program what’s going on in your world how’s your mental today you know I think it’s good it’s good everything is good um trying to do what I can to make it from one moment to the next there’s always a lot to do so yeah glad to make it here and I made it on time was like impressed that that happened I didn’t leave when I was supposed to so well you had backup they call and say hey she’s on her way we

00:06:59 like okay we was still working working working oh yeah they say you we was expecting you so you were right on time so let’s talk a little bit about you grew up here in Cleveland I did so give me a little bit of your background where you grow up at well um uh my parents I I’ll start there they met at John Adams High School so they my grandmother my mother’s mother they lived across the park across the street from the park Woodhill Park MH and um I guess they call it LC Easter Park yeah and my father’s family uh live over

00:07:35 in 123rd in Dove on corner there um and after a while I went to Elementary School uh at Miles Park Elementary okay U my mother moved uh and we lived in moris moris Black for a period of time really absolutely okay and uh and then I lived in Georgia for a period of time with my maternal grandparents on a farm there okay and back and forth back and forth what was like living on the farm I’ve lived all over the city of Cleveland quite honestly in the in the inek suburbs what was it like living on the farm though it

00:08:16 was amazing what kind of farm was it life uh vegetable fruit vegetable and pigs oh and pigs they did have some pigs okay they were our pets and our sustenance really how long you lived on the farm uh off and on uh through uh my brother was born in 1988 and so I would I came here came back here and was kind of like not going back over the Summers once he was born okay what part of the South was you south of M southeast of M in a small town I say it’s the sticks it’s called dry Branch Georgia dry Branch Georgia in Twigs

00:08:54 County Twigs County geez D you can’t you can’t get no other than that dry Briggs County right dry Branch dry Branch County in Twigs County no drybridge Dr Branch dry branch is the city in Twigs County in Twigs County wow yeah weall have a mayor I I don’t know if we call it a city right it’s a little town right you got a little May of the town and all wow that’s interesting is it still I imagine it’s still there oh absolutely I see I’ll lay eyes on it this weekend Oh you going down I try to go back uh uh and see the dirt yes

00:09:31 that’s grounding and centering that is that is yeah so you you spend some Summers down there and dry Branch some school years too school year oh you went to school down there actually too okay for a portion of of my elementary schooling oh okay okay then you got back up here to the big city yeah and at the end of 1980 the end of fourth grade um the spring of 1984 my mother moved to Shaker Heights OH and somehow I’ve been there ever since you know that’s a a a really good mix I mean hey like you say

00:10:04 you started out over Morris black Morris black went to the South and then came back and went to the heights it’s an interesting experience interesting experience right yeah so how old was you when you made it back to the heights um that was 1984 so I was nine n okay so you was in there and um and or maybe I hadn’t even turned nine yet I was eight really yeah yeah I I hadn’t even turned I hadn’t even turned nine yet I was in 84 yeah you know you make me feel like an old man I don’t do it don’t do it you don’t

00:10:39 have to feel old man you know I graduated high school in like 87 you was nine years old in 84 well my parents graduated before you so you’re right in the mix I’m probably in your parents ages almost in that well no you’re younger than them but yeah really wow they graduated from high school in 1975 so you you you know you’ve been doing some things then you a youngster been out there really pounding it so let’s get to it then so you came back here and you went to Shaker Heist high school and um what was it about your experience

00:11:12 growing up in middle school and high school out there in Shaker that you liked that I liked oh yeah I mean uh special place yeah it’s a special place uh Shaker Heights is it is definitely uh um how do I say we in in some ways we lived in a bubble but at the same time we had very very real world experiences uh it’s a diverse place for sure for a young Aisha a young girl like me to be interjected in a space and place with folks who don’t know anything about moris black much less the country right uh was interesting uh but I made a

00:11:52 lot of friends early you move as much as I do you learn how to make friends quickly okay uh and so I have lifelong friends to to this day uh my best friend is somebody who I met in fifth grade really we went to college together really uh yeah she’s more like a sister than she is like saying a friend doesn’t quite capture it do you know uh and there’s so many folks in our class our graduating class of 1993 uh that I think really work hard to make an impact in the world um um and so even though we were in this bubble we

00:12:26 also had an awareness about the world around us and and uh compassion for ourselves and the people around us right um and not you know and I I will honestly say that um most people might say the place where they grow up is special but if I look at my classmates uh and the work that they’re doing in the world I know for sure they’re special really abely give me an example of somebody and you a gota get their names but like you can say in your class you think we you’re special you became a professor any other professor in your

00:13:00 class oh I’m sure there is I don’t know that Professor spe especially special though it’s particularly special it’s molding a lot of great smart people I mean is H that that’s huge though right I know that I have some colleagues that are some classmates that are on faculty but I’m thinking of like you know U my classmates who are in television that’s what I’m say okay right so Carter creates how did I get away no wrong show How I Met Your Mother really uhhuh uhhuh um that’s somebody from here absolutely

00:13:39 wow um uh a lot of doctors who are working really hard to provide services to folks who wouldn’t otherwise have medical care services um my my best friend who was uh in a Broadway she was in The Lion King and The Color Purple so she sings you know now she must really can sing she can sing mariama white I will say her name marama white excellent uh and um and others who are just really doing phenomenal work uh whether it’s racial justice social justice work in the spaces in which they occupy yeah so you

00:14:15 went on to college where you go the College of Worcester College of how you end up there interesting yeah um they did a tour and my guidance counselor in high school said I know you want to go to an HBCU this place is coming here and they will pick you up and bring you back do you want to go and I was like where is that I have no idea uh and so me and my best friend we went on a on a van uh and went down for a weekend and we fell in love with the place largely because of excuse me how welcome in the

00:14:49 community the black community was on campus it was very small but very very Mighty very very very close very proud um and then you know the trees and the right the the corn fields and all of that stuff you know felt good to me too well well that you felt a little Hy yeah that felt good and it was different you know now um cell phones exist you know but we used to call Long Distance it cost my family a lot of money for me to call home you know and the drive was like a big deal how am I going to get my stuff

00:15:24 down to campus how am I going to get it back you know now was there like between Cleveland minutes it is yeah between Cleveland and Columbus right is nowhere it is nowhere but having a different area code and at the time costing long distance to place the telephone call made us feel like we were so far away you know it is life kind of does that you know when you like you say when you was younger and everything else I don’t know if the cars were just slower or something it seemed like life was slower

00:15:53 that’s what it was life was just slow you know my kids um my daughter and my son both play Sports and stuff and I know for a fact I used to take my daughter to uh practice softball with her team it was an hour and a half hour drive there and back and I used to do it like it was no big deal at all and maybe like two or three times a week and on the weekends we would go like it was no big deal at all I would have had no way to get there exactly as a young person it would have never happened right the

00:16:27 team you’re going to be on exactly you on the team around the corner cuz that’s about as far as you was going exactly take the bus exactly you can ride your bike exactly oh you’re right things are so much faster and because like I I’ll say okay I’ll be on the phone and about the time I get off the phone we there at practice why she at practice I’m on the phone the whole time she at practice or working it was like no big deal at all but like you say that was a lot of driving and stuff yeah you wouldn’t have

00:16:51 been able to do that and even when cell phones came about at the end of my college right time uh we had to pay for minutes unless it was unless it was worse than the long distance unless it was nice and weekend exactly exactly yeah so it’s nowhere now in the grand scheme of things but at the time it seemed like seemed a long we were leaving yeah we left home yes we really did leave home and so what you major in when you got down there uh sociology and black studies and black studies okay what what bought those on uh I was just

00:17:21 figuring it out you know um I thought I would be an English major and maybe could have uh and then decided that the study of people really really intrigued me so that’s how I landed with sociology uh black studies that come from a lot my mother and my father are both radicals uh and so learning black history and learning about our culture being immersed in our culture and our people and thinking about what I could do in service of my community was like a mandate from my father so give me some give me uh

00:17:55 growing up in that type of situation with your family and you say radical as a kid what would you call radical that you thought your parents was just like to well I mean I was just very much raised in the in the black radical tradition and so and so I had I had a name Aisha my father always told me very clearly what it meant you know uh uh the prophet Muhammad’s youngest and prettiest wife ah right I never knew that but that my name meant life and and my father really really focused on um helping me to understand the importance

00:18:31 of you know your name and your place in the world and that being black was a sense of was something to be proud of okay never to be ashamed and never let anybody tell you who you are because you know that I came into the world with that um and and they worked really hard to tell me and so you know uh I had afro as a kid like really my mother would let my hair be out you know they would call me Lil Angela that kind of a thing so you was natural oh yeah always yeah yeah not always right because I am black

00:19:04 American so so we had moments uh but yeah but yeah was they like Community involved like was they actively involved so my father was my father was at Ohio State when I was born uh and so he was in organizations on campus around um all black I’m GNA screw up the names but yes and then my mother here she has pictures of me with a little suit on little briefcase and we would go to community meetings um all African people’s revolutionary party meetings and stuff like that so just raised very much in a

00:19:40 black radical tradition and then um you graduated from woster and then what’ you do I went to law school okay I went to law school uh did one year I got married the week before did a year of law school um and then stayed home and raised kids for four years and then went back to law school to finish my last two years and so I have two wonderful children who are now adults oh um and as adults as they can get with me insisting that they’re still my babies all right I totally understand that uh uh and and yeah so I

00:20:16 went to law school I decided to stay in Cleveland I went to Case Western oh you went to case okay I had dreams of being in Philly but family said otherwise so I well Cas ain’t a bad place to be yeah no I listen it is it is it is of great importance to me the institution and the the well-being and certainly the the the ability of our students to thrive and for black students um both from Cleveland and elsewhere uh to be to feel welcome and to be in a space where they feel like they can succeed despite

00:20:55 the fact that there aren’t very many there isn’t necessarily A critical mass right okay but that they can Thrive anyway um is really important to me did you um did you work in law I did okay how long did you work in line where did you go six years uh well SE closer to I guess seven eight so I graduated in ‘ 04 and in 12 2012 I came back to the law school to teach full-time prior to that I had been um a mid-level uh lawyer at Tucker Ellis which is a law firm here in Cleveland but it’s a national uh Law

00:21:30 Firm it’s headquartered here in Cleveland and was in their litigation Department made a decision to go to case because um there was an absence of black faculty and uh and because at the time you know as much as I loved my practice and all of what I was doing my family also needed me to not be on the road so much ah okay I got you gotta yeah so I made that decision thinking it would be a temporary one and I would go back and make partner and life would be great but you end up staying in Cas and I

00:22:02 ended up staying because I really do um appreciate the privilege that I have to be able to to think capture my thoughts right um do research and writing in a way and then hopefully meet the students where they are uh in a way that makes a difference for them how long you was that case how long you’ve been case I’ve been there since 2012 so this is my 12th year okay yeah so sound like you like what you’re doing there and everything and seemed like they let you do just about what you like to do it seems like

00:22:31 just about I don’t have any complaints necessarily about what I’m able to do you know um my first podcast guest the very first one was with Jackie Chisum oh yes yes and she sat there in that chair we talked for three hours I mean that’s when I didn’t really know what I was doing but she gave me three hours of her time exactly and we talked about everything and when I first met her that’s where I met her at it case oh did you M yeah yes her and uh saber Scott it was good friends of hers and we went

00:23:04 over to the school and she was a counsel woman and she introduced me to Dr Chism then and um she’s been looking out for me ever since I I met her on the campaign Trail oh excellent yeah yeah yeah when I ran for school board you know when you ran for school board oh um 200 17 for the Cleveland School Board no Shaker High SCH for Shaker High School Shaker High School board did you make it I did oh okay top vote getter really M oh mostly because I was afraid to lose how and so what was that like being

00:23:40 in the school system how long did you do that I did one term sir oh just one term I did said that was enough for you it was oh what did you learn most out of doing it oh um that the thing that I learned most is that uh it is easy for folks to espouse their ideals about what they want in a community and in a school system it is very difficult for folks to walk it out that’s with everything yeah you know that’s that’s with everything people will tell you in a heartbeat what they want to do but they will you know

00:24:16 there’s a saying I tell my partner all the time I say you know it says I’m behind you all the way but the further you get into it the further behind I’m there so everybody I got your back yeah okay you turn around they got your back they back there somewhere and that’s just usually how it goes yeah wow yeah no it was a great experience I’ve served in the community generally for some time right what made you want to do it then uh what made me want to do it because I it was seemed like the next logical step

00:24:46 and Equity was on the line um making sure that a policy uh a committee that I had worked on and had de had worked with others to develop a policy around equity for the school system for the District um and wanted to make sure that that the powers that be would actually see it through uh which they did um that part was uh was the easy part but then we had a building Catch Fire a pandemic set in the need to hire a new superintendent all of the things right I was there thinking about the priority of this one thing to make

00:25:21 sure that students uh who were uh in the buildings didn’t confront the same things that I had confronted as a student right being made to believe that you were less than simply because of the color of your skin or be trying folks trying to make you believe that you’re less than because of the color of your skin having teachers tell me like oh you won’t be good at this thing because black students just are not good uh having a teacher not not teachers plural but having a teacher tell me that right

00:25:48 I thought it was really important to make sure that no other no other student of color no other black student ever encountered that type of thinking so a teacher told you that absolutely what grade we in I was in ninth grade uh leaving honors English going trying to make some decisions about what my schedule would look like for 10th grade and was told oh even though you did really well in this class black students just don’t excel at honors and advanced placement English you should go to college prep really

00:26:24 absolutely wow I imagine they wasn’t a black person who told that and and trust me it could have been but I’m not taking that away in any straight woman it could have been but it wasn’t yeah okay yeah well you worked in various capacities within the legal system but what was the defining moment in your life that steered you towards this tackling this systemic inequities head on what what was it make you go down this road that you into because I hear you talk a lot about inequities even when you talk about when you were

00:26:59 going to run for school board you know it was some inequities you saw in the school system and something you thought you know what maybe is something I can do tell me a little bit about that and is there something particular in your life that makes you want to have that drive to do that I don’t know being alive looking paying attention like I don’t know if I can say it’s one moment as much as I would say I mean we have the data now right like when I was growing up we didn’t necessarily have the data but you I didn’t need the data

00:27:29 to know what it was like to be black in America right to leave from one place and come to another place and be like gosh did they drop me off in a is this a part of a book I’ve been reading you know like to imagine that a place like Shaker Heist actually existed and wasn’t fiction right was was mindblowing to me right uh that in and of itself is an inequity right uh uh right that you could have people in the same city right that’s correct without like living in poverty right While others live in

00:28:03 mansions that that was really quite interesting to me and then to try to understand how or why that was right moving beyond sort of like the oh if you just are excellent if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps you too can have right like right that’s not how this works and so if we are paying attention to the world around us um and and and thinking about wholesale Solutions right um that aren’t just on an individual basis right like The Gatekeepers allow one to come in and then they close the gate behind

00:28:37 them right what what makes you feel that way though and you say that’s not a feeling obervation to prove your dat and everything but what makes you feel as if that’s something that you want to tackle oh I I don’t know that that it’s a conscious decision about tackling as much as it is just a um a recognition number one like like my inclination my personality is just to tell the truth and then to feel the responsibility to also like tell the truth there it is that’s what I S okay there it is right so it’s always been

00:29:09 that way for you yeah yeah yeah yeah yes I think I think if you talk to the people who have known me forever and hopefully love me they would say you’re radical what you can count you can count on her to tell you what she thinks and why she thinks and they say she’s a radical that’s my that’s my girl she’s a radical and they you gonna love talking she’s a radical and she that so I just really wanted to know if that’s what it was and I know you were sitting in nice and Cal but I know that people told me

00:29:35 and I know you’ve been on some stuff and you done spoke up on some really tough issues and that’s why I really want to talk to you and let’s talk about one you can can I just really quickly it’s so interesting too that we think about like that that we think of Truth telling as radical well right and and and I get it I mean I get it I’m not I mean aside from the fact that there’s like a radical right right now right like I wouldn’t NE necessarily like issue the label right because because it is important I think of it as as as

00:30:06 important to not follow blindly with things as they are but to call out problems right in the systems and the policies and the laws right to call those things out right because everything isn’t honky Dory right everything isn’t perfect uh and and if you say hey have you thought about this thing or have you thought about how this impacts these people right that that’s deemed radical right I might say I’m a Problem Solver well well see listen that that either that or or or I’m bringing you problems for you guys to look at and

00:30:46 try to figure else to solve it and but don’t act like there’s not a problem let’s not pretend let’s don’t pretend there’s a problem and and the reason why I’m stuck on that is because I contend I come off that way but when I sometimes it it may come off as if I’m liking the title they gave you radical they just say sometimes I’m just really either mean or I’m just really being um um you know you just really blunt with what you’re saying or that kind of thing but the wi I got from you was that you’re a

00:31:17 truth fighter and and you fight for the truth and you’re out there so that’s good yeah people may say oh ken I don’t like that dude because he just comes off really mean and it’s a difference and and they’ll say it was mean because I said well I told you the truth man you didn’t like the way I said it but I was right right they yeah but man come on dude you know you ain’t have to do it like you rip the B right I’m a bandaid Ripper off let’s get it over with sting is over with right but and but it’s good

00:31:45 and and part of being that person who does that and speaking out on those things sometimes you get that title and that’s a good thing no I’m cool with it yeah I love it I love it that’s why you’re here because we want radical people doing IAL things and Cleveland you’ve been a key player in the Cleveland Police reform efforts let’s get down to some of that crazy stuff what was your initial reaction when they first asked you to join the monitoring team and did you uh anticipate the challenges that will come with it um I

00:32:18 mean I I I couldn’t have known all of the challenges the specificities of the challenges right but I certainly knew um that there was something uh unusual about my engagement and involvement in the process so let’s take a step back because we assuming that my millions and millions and millions of viewers out there millions and millions understand exactly what you were doing so let’s tell everybody what was the monitoring team and what was that all about that you were sitting on that’s a fair question and I should say

00:32:52 the consent decree is live and well it exists even though I’m not serving in the capacity that I’m about to describe to you it is still ongoing uh it is a federal agreement between the Department of Justice and the city of Cleveland um and its Police Department to Institute a set uh of wholesale reforms across uh various substantive areas from use of force which we think about with police search stops and arrest search and seizure Fourth Amendment um uh and Community engagement uh uh and problem

00:33:27 solving uh and so um as well as data collection technology those pieces and parts uh I was asked by an individual is putting together a team uh to place a a bid to put in an application to serve as the monitor the monitor serves as the federal agent to the judge so is not a member of the city is not a member of the Department of Justice but as I like to say tells the judge how the parties are doing towards implementing the reforms that they agreed to um they call balls ball you know call balls and Strikes essentially

00:34:07 a perfect position for you it sound like sound like they got the perfect person for it it sound like to be and so and so when I was first asked to to sign on with the team my real thought was like I need to figure out who these people are on this team and will they really do it with some Fidelity will they really monitor oh boy our first uh there were a lot of us really um yeah because the guy who the man uh Matthew barge who created the team made it a point to have subject matter experts in every substantive area wow yeah lot of

00:34:43 phds at the table you well you had police Executives so you had police Chiefs and Commissioners with long-standing you know experience in that work as well as um uh there was I was a professor I’m a professor one of the professors and there was another young woman from NYU okay uh uh and then the rest were folks who are Consultants um and had been involved in either like uh President Obama’s 21st century task force on policing uh yeah so I you know I felt that like this is the real team if there is a team this is the real Team

00:35:22 uh and uh but still was a little Leary uh had to make sure I understood what they philosophy around policing me um and and you managed the whole team I eventually did but when I started in 2015 I was just a team member wow okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so let’s talk about leading up to the management of the team so that’s that’s what the team was all about and and how many years was you on there eight eight eight years yeah wow how long is this consent decree with the city well so um the consent decree uh

00:35:59 will go on as long as it takes for the reforms to be in place right but the county C the city council budgets for a certain period of time right and so they and so when sometimes when people talk about how long they’re the question you know are we talking about City council’s budget for or are we talking about when we project the city will be done actually implementing the reforms those are two different things two different things those are two different things so we going to get in those two different

00:36:28 things we don’t have to get into it but that’s just my overview oh no I know that that hey that’s what makes good podcast so let’s talk about before we get into that so is a whole group of you guys and you guys were getting that together who was the first person who was the chief who came in who was monitoring Matthew barge Matthew barge okay and he did it for a few years and he did do it for a a few years yes and then they decided it was time to put somebody else say Matthew barge decided that he was done and he walked away um

00:37:02 uh he transitioned to other work okay he just moved on to something he moved on to something else left a vacancy he well he no well yes it would have been vacant but for um there was an individual on our team who was named as his who the judge and the parties agreed would be the successor and that was his name was Hassan Aiden and so after that how long was he there uh boy a few years again oh okay uhuh a few years again his time and then he decided moving on yeah and that was that happened a little bit more abruptly

00:37:36 than Matthew’s transition and that is how I became interim monitor oh that was a little more abrupt that just kind of happened and before that I had served as a a deputy monitor um under Hassan and so when he made that trans transition um I decided that until we could find the new monitor and that that new person’s name is Carl racing and he’s out of Washington DC um uh that I would serve in an interim capacity understanding and recognizing that teaching writing research and writing is my full-time job

00:38:10 and my passion uh but that in service to the community um uh it would be important for there to be some continuity in leadership so let’s talk about the itself and all that continuity and the leadership it takes to do that how difficult was that trying to pull all those people together and make this thing work and and do you really feel that there’s some significant strides that’s being made through this whole consent degree uh my feelings don’t matter that’s the judges say so I produced some uh an in report yeah I

00:38:43 produced some reports that identified where the city had um opportunity uh to make strides um and provided my summary of what they had done up until that point are those public records They are public records live you can tell me one of them that you thought the city could do to do better oh there I couldn’t I mean I don’t I couldn’t tell you one of them that wouldn’t be fair to the people or to the to you know well well it’s not to say that they’re not doing it no I’m just saying that in in and where I guess

00:39:16 I’m getting that is that the commission was put together to come up with some solutions right oh the the the so the commission and the monitoring team are two different things I mean not the commission the the monitoring team was to come up with some solutions that they thought implementation process is there any that came out of this that you thought were implemented that you thought were good as a as a result of you guys getting together that’s what yeah well so a good thing yeah very early on uh we made no bones about the

00:39:43 fact that the city uh adopted at the time which was a leading uh uh use of force policy um and that the justification required in order to use different levels of force uh uh was unique to Cleveland at the time others other cities have you know built upon that and and even far exceeded that but our use of force policy um at that time and the community input uh that went into creating that use of force policy was hands down um Bar None unlike any other process that had happened to that date and you guys

00:40:22 reformed that we C we we worked with the city and the Department of Justice and and Cleveland community members uh yes to come up with that policy a new policy in your opinion what would you think is some of the biggest things that’s holding us back in trying to get this thing together um an understanding of the urgency of the work and a recognition that no matter how many policies you create without the right um leadership culture framework mindset uh engagement in the work um you’re just one moment away from another critical

00:41:10 incident uh that can be devastating to an individual to that individual’s family and to the broader Community um and and so and so we can’t get weary and well-doing right uh it’s really really very important that we not only come up with the words on the paper but that we walk it out and that and that everyone responsible for the work walks it out um I think that that’s that’s a huge effort that’s a huge effort you know um and and we can’t assume that just because we make some strides that that’s good

00:41:47 enough yeah would would you think that’s the most significant contribution the thing has done at this point you think I mean I think it’s the one that people will um um hopefully be able to identify quantify uh see uh difference in the type of use of force used prec consent decree and the use of force and the accountability mechanisms for those using those uses of force um post or during the consent decree and postc consent decree I think that’s probably the most tangible one that people will be looking for um on the streets

00:42:28 I know one of the issues that came up with that was um the amount of money that um was paid to the gentleman who’s doing that what’s your thoughts on all of that is there uh and I’m not saying whether it was right or wrong but I imagine there is a fee to do what you have to do to do the job that there has to pay um any idea of how you feel that was he is it unbalanced or you feel is is the city really has a belief that they’re paying too much for it or you believe they just need to get the service done I I don’t know what anybody

00:43:01 else believes but I will tell you that um there’s always been a complaint about having to pay for this um and the reality is is that nobody should work for free it’s not Equitable or just to ask anyone to work for free correct uh and especially when uh it’s a problem of the city’s own creation right uh and the reality of the situation is is that we cannot be satisfied with paying civil lawsuits to the few that are lucky enough right to to to get their cases heard and renumerated uh when when when they’ve

00:43:38 been harmed uh we should want to be better than that and we should want to be more proactive instead of reactive than that that’s cor and having someone work through having a team of folks work through this process with the city only helps to serve Us in the long run and and and arguing about the dollars the the money that’s spent for the services is like is like it’s like for me it’s bottom of the barrel it really really misses the point and that’s not to say I’m not F aware of the fiscal constraints of a Municipality of course

00:44:14 I am but the reality is is that you’re paying them one way or the other wouldn’t you much rather pay them for improvement as opposed to pay them as a punishment and and the lawsuits that you’re going to keep incurring I mean just really yeah let me let me ask you we got got a few more questions I’m G let you go here because I know you busy and gotta go um so I’m G ask it this way you left you came back and then you’re gone you left again right with the um Department I was asked yes I was asked to leave yeah take me through that whole

00:44:45 process if you don’t mind y it’s 2024 we’re still talking about this cuz you popular listen because you were supposed to been on my show I told you a year ago when all of this stuff was going on they was like you need to get her on I want to talk about I want to talk about the social justice Institute the think tank that I have but hold on you know what listen you gonna answer that and then we’re gonna see the last 10 minutes to talk about that okay okay all right so answer this and then let’s get it all

00:45:08 into that okay I really appreciate that I I will say because I was making up questions so I really appreciate that I’m good let’s go I will just say um that uh that moment in time as difficult as it was and as concerned as I was about the Fidelity of the process as it related to the implement of the consent decree I was so very very proud to be from Cleveland I was very very proud of the folks who said we may not understand we may not be involved in the daytoday okay of what’s happening with this

00:45:42 consent decree but we know this individual and we know the type of person that she is right and and and what she’s being accused of biased right what She’s accused of being is so far from the truth and is beside the point uh and that they wanted me to be present on the team um to monitor right the the reform effort um very very in a in a space where you might imagine as a black woman I’m often isolated one of one of one or one of very few um to have folks from all segments of my of the community

00:46:24 sort of like recognize the issue and the concern here not for me personally but really for our community as a whole was very very heartening got you it was very very heartening it made me very very proud and it makes me clear about what we’re capable of right when we stand with each other excellent uh uh for what’s necessary for us you know I appreciate that and you coming on sharing that with us I know like I told you I been trying to get you on a while ago and when I first started because you

00:46:55 was in the mix of all of this when it was going down and I wanted to really get a chance to talk to you and get your side of everything and just because like I said you’re very interested you was on my top 10 list people appr who supposed to got in here the first top 10 podcast so Professor I want you tell us I got my little questions out the way why don’t you tell me what you working on what you doing now what’s going on so uh so some of the same stuff I’ve always been doing but with a sharper focus and a little

00:47:22 bit lighter calendar uh which is nice uh so I direct um the social justice Law Center at the law school okay and I direct uh the University’s Social Justice Institute the Social Justice Institute was founded in 2010 so it was came about before I ever uh was even at the school uh the founding um a director is a Woman by the name of Dr Ronda Williams and she created the spa I’m sure you have she she’s now um at Wright State in Detroit Michigan but she created the space and the opportun for me to like flourish as

00:47:58 a junior scholar okay um coming from the law school that was uh the opposite of radical okay okay right right uh being in that space uh but wanting to think about solutions for the problems uh that confront my people uh and so I was WR working on a piece around reparations and the Social Justice Institute was a home for me was an intellectual home for me for sure on campus uh had the opportunity um uh under the old provos Ben vinon to be appointed as uh in leadership of of the Social Justice Institute back in May of

00:48:38 2020 and um and so we’re holding now for this right oh it’s my third is this my third Think Tank I think this is technically can that be right yes technically so the first think tank we held was uh on Zoom because it was right right right in a pandemic um the second one we held was two years ago um uh and this year we’re hosting our next think tank it’s my fir uh uh it’s the the think tank I did that I participated in as a junior scholar uh was when Angela Davis was our keynote speaker I remember she was here do you

00:49:16 remember when she was here okay so then you know this is our intergenerational Think Tank it is our our Marquee event if you will held every two years okay and when is it going to be going to be October 25th and 26th okay so we’re going to have a community reception at Red all Gardens on Friday uh October 26 since we right around October I’m gonna air you closer oh will you to there so we can do it and we gonna make sure when we end you get to do a little promo here so we can fish it out there that’s what

00:49:44 I wanted to do there excellent beautiful uhuh okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so and then on the 26th which is the Saturday we’ll have a host of of of panel discussions and a keynote uh speaker you know who that’s going to be yet I do you want to tell me you want to give us a little we coming in October so we going to be close you want to hold let me just say let me just say y’all want to be there y’all want to be there want to be there uh but he’s confirmed oh is he we got a little bit out of he

00:50:14 the scker is confirmed and and and I’m really really excited about uh what he’s going to share our theme is uh collaboration we’re we’re better uh together we’re better and we’re stronger let me get this together our theme is collaboration we are stronger and better together there it is yeah excellent yeah excellent I that sound like you got some good stuff going on you really happy about that you really lit up we talked about that I’m talk about that’s what I’m that’s a big and tell me what what

00:50:47 you expect to get out of the think tank and all of the stuff that you’re doing with it I love the creating the space and the opportunity so it’s intergenerational and and and even even though it’s on a University campus what I love about it and what other academics who’ve come uh to our space for it they’re like we’re here and there’s so many community members here like I don’t know if I’ve ever been in a space where it’s just like community community community where’s located uh so we the last two have been held in the Tinkham

00:51:17 Ville Center okay uh on quas campus which is on a street called Bellflower like at the intersection of Bellflower and and Ford now you you guys not going into that house Julian Rogers no oh that’s something totally different yeah he’s community and government relations okay because I know he said he was they rehabing a house over there or something to do community stuff I’ve seen it on the edge of Campus all right so that’s something different but the Social Justice Institute is really like a political think really yeah think

00:51:47 political educational Think Tank not just Community engagement but what I what I loved about it and what I got out of it was I had wise say like Sage Elders from Community who came to my talk on reparations and chapter and verse could talk about the scholars and the theory right that I was wrestling with uh and these are my uncles right like like from Community uh they don’t they don’t necessarily have letters after their names right uh but to be able to sit at their feet right and to absorb not just their lived experience

00:52:23 but their intellectual prowess uh is just a very very very dope time and so that’s what I love about think tank it’s intergenerational because we have students on campus we have those Sage Elders from the community and we have academics our panels often have practitioners academics uh uh and the like but they’re all as you might say activist laning academics right who really want they’re not just thinking about theory for the sake of theory they’re thinking about Theory towards Liberation uh they want it to mean

00:52:55 something and to leave a mark and so are you guys doing anything for this presidential election are y’all doing any writing anything or reaching out on anything of that uh so we so interesting like no surprise to you because since case is a nonprofit uh 501c3 is that right so we’re not allowed to do partisan pieces and parts right uh but we absolutely uh do educate last um last year we had a research session on voting rights um with my scholar my colleague who’s a scholar in voting rights in election law atiba Ellis um so I came to

00:53:35 the law school uh for a long period of time I was the only black woman there but I’ve been sure not to be the only one so I there’s since I’ve been there there’s now atiba Ellis who’s a black man and Brian Adamson who’s our associate dean of diversity equity and inclusion um and so attiba Ellis has he does a lot of research writing and speaking about voting rights um and so we will host um those types of events um yeah let me know about all those I will I will we have to get you on our newsletter yes definitely I want to be a

00:54:07 part of that stuff other stuff you’re doing I’d like to know because you said a a bunch of stuff I got to get you back because you you you pushed the whole at the end you got me with aha that’s what all the good stuff is there you’re right that stuff we talked about was old yeah the good stuff is the stuff we talking about now I’m excited about it that stuff is really good and I i’ love to have you come back to be just a commentator on some of the stuff we’re doing I would like to talk with other

00:54:32 people around here and we’re going to talk about politics we’re going to talk about um the vote and that thing but this my question for you this what I want you to come back about you feel the African-Americans should get reparations I do and do you feel that the country can pay afford to give us reparation absolutely see that’s why I want to have a whole conversation on that we should talk about it if you got to go I got to let you go I know but I got to bring you back because I’m look back like wait a

00:55:01 minute this what I need you to come back and we need to come back and have a whole conversation about that I really appreciate that and I appreciate getting a chance to get to know you I got and thank you for coming on our program and love we she will be back people because we gonna talk about reparations we’re gonna talk about what she’s doing at the school and we’re gonna talk about this election once it’s over with we’re going to take a look at what happened some of the numbers and how did after Americans

00:55:27 do because that’s going to be the big thing and it’s so much like KLA Democrat Republic we’re GNA talk about how did African Americans do this elction in the meantime could I just ask your listeners to please go to uh case.edu social justice oh well here we G list we’re about to end our program because Professor gotta go she got to get up out of here and but like we end most of our programs we’re gonna give you an opportunity look right in this camera you can take your time say whatever you like to say to the camera and the people

00:55:58 and how they can reach out to you and all of that we will be putting all that information in the description so you will be able to get it there but Professor thanks for coming on and the camera is yours thank you so much for having me I just want to ask everybody to come out for sji the social justice institute’s uh bial Think Tank intergenerational Think Tank October 25th and 26th uh on the 26 is at the Tinkham Ville Center at Case Western Reserve University you can find out more in information at

00:56:28 www.case.edu socialjustice one word or you could email us your uh contact information at socialjustice case.edu so that we could add you to our mailing list thank you Professor Aisha Bale Hardway got it right yes yes see Aisha B Hardway thanks for coming on our program she will be back because we going to talk reparations people and y’all going to not want to miss that and I’ll talk to y’all soon peace [Music]